Dec 18

Another picture-less update…Site was backfilled the other week – and WE DID, indeed, take it on the chin and put in a change order. So we are now back to what we originally had – we are just a bit lighter in the pocketbook. Now the first floor great room, breakfast area and kitchen will be 10ft ceilings. It is hard to describe how much impact 10ft makes over 9ft – but once you are in a house/room with it – it really changes the entire feeling of that area. Something we should have just kept in all along. Oh well, as long as this is the first and last change – we can live with it. Better to take it on the chin then regret for years to come.

Things have slowed a bit due to the change order – however, I was able to get the architect to do a quick turnaround and it is already approved through the city of Naperville – so we are pretty much back on track within 10days – pretty darn efficient considering 9 of the 10 pages of the blueprints had to be modified due to the 1ft change. It means on the 2nd floor – the kids area – bedrooms 2 and 3 and the 2nd bathroom – are now kind of set off from the others – as to get to “their” area – you need to go up two steps (as it is 10ft below those areas). That was the original intention when I drew the plan out – just glad it worked out in the final plan. The roof also becomes a bit taller now and thee master bedroom , because of the way the lumber lays out – gets a 1ft boost, virtually by default.

Elsewhere – we are finally – after 3 months of looking – narrowing down to the final window selections. I would have never imagined it to be such a complex decision with so many options. We are leaning towards going w/ casement windows that mimick the look of a double hung (via a grille pattern). This way, you get the best of both worlds – the clean look and efficiency of casements – and the more craftsman look of a double hung. Also, casements will allow us to integrate blinds to be flush with the wall. Double hungs will create issues with depth and we would need to get creative w/ blinds. I think the finished product will be a unique feature of the house - something you don’t see every day.

Also – we are planning on replacing the windows in the front dining room to a 4panel French door – this will allow the front covered porch to become more a part of the house. The two middle panels open up, to create a wide opening. You can see this feature on the pic I posted previously of the house being built up the street from is (yes, we stole another idea). Another reason for this change is we are unsure what that room will ultimately be used for – with the breakfast room probably becoming where we eat 99.9% of the time – this front room may transition to more of a multi-use room. I don’t know – we shall see. We will also be ditching any idea for a chandelier or hanging light in this room – we will go with recessed in here – again – to leave the options open for what this room will be. I think our (or at least my) concept for this room is it becomes a transition to the large 8x17 covered porch – and March through October – with the 4panel French door – really merges outside and inside together (Ok, I am veering to far off into HGTV land now).

Sewer and Water folks were out yesterday and today – meaning the house will actually be hooked into the sewer and water grid. Then, all that is left to do underground is the electric and the gas….which should come sooner than later.

Hope is to get the framer up and running asap – and start making some “above” ground progress – that is much more visual.

Rigid Foam Insulation and Possible CHANGE ORDER/

Finally got to put in some of that valuable "sweat equity" - as the 48 sheets of rigid foam insulation needed to be put up before we can backfill. I had planned to do it Friday, but damp proofers got behind and were at the site longer than anticipated. So today was the day, no matter what the weather. But, weather finally returned to a more "normal" temp - with temps in the mid to upper 30's today. Worked out very well, as was in and out of the ground in about 4 hours. Certainly not a job I care to do again anytime soon. Pretty easy, just very dirty. But given I was quoted $2300 for someone to do it for me - and the material only cost about $900 - I opted to save that $$.

Other news is we may put in place an "official" change order with the architect (a thing I had guaranteed I would not do) - but after much thought - its one of those items if we dont take time to get right now - it will be around 150 yrs until someone knocks this house down.

We had originally had 10ft cielings in the great room, breakfast room and kitchen. It all flowed well. We scaled back to jsut having it in the great room and while it works - it leaves a lot of changes in the cieling lines and am afraid it may look off - so we have a call into the architect to see costs/timing to get changed. The time I am not worried about - as we can continue working on the backfill and utility work while changes are being made - its the fees from the acrhitect and the city of Naperville that concern me - as the change will need to be reviwed and approved.

We shall see...

Foundation Up...

Well, we have hit some of the delays I knew would happen but hoped wouldnt. In the matter of 10 days we have done from some nice late fall temps in the mid-40's to a couple inches of snow and now some pretty cold temps, maxing out at 27 today and likely the same tomorrow.

The foundation walls are done - forms were pulled off Wednesday - with the hopes of damp proofing the foundation on Thu - however, the cold temps froze some of the guys lines on another job and he hopes to come out tomorrow do ours - but not sure if temps will allow. Its a pretty critical step, as it (damp proofing) is required by Naperville code - and we are at a standstill until that step is done. We can't backfill, which means we can't get the underground plumbing done nor the electric - nor start on framing. Its a string of dominoes being held up until dampproofing can be done.

Also got caught in left field on the code for rigid foam insulation - which needs to be placed over the dampproofing. I plan to just place the panels on myslef (2x4x8 panels) to save $1,000 - but again, dampproofing not being done is mucking up my plans to do that tomorrow...so we shall see.


9ft basement with 3 windows ... 1 large escape window (code) and 2 smaller windows on the north side...


Window wells with drainage system installed...

Foundation Forms Up, Inspected and Concrete Poured

Since Friday, the forms for the foundation walls went up and by the time I got back out to the site tonight - the walls had been poured. I did not think they would pour until Wednesday - as this morning, the forms were not complete yet - and those need a city inspection. Turns out, they had it all lined up tightly and it went smoothly.

Weather has cooperated so far, hanging in the 40's and no precip, so all has been well.





Its dark by 4:45, so hard to get good shots late in the day - but walls were poured (and covered to keep them warmer, as it has been dipping down well into the 20's at night).

Footers Poured

On Thursday the concrete crew was out and poured the footers. They had them laid out and inspected all in the same day. Looked more like an artifact excavation dig than anything, but still amazed at how fast these guys work.


It is amazing the precision and speed these guys work with...



While the garage being on this side of the house saved a lot of digging depth...several good chunks of root system from the right side of the 70 yr old cottonwood got "backhoed" - so hopefully it is not a fatal blow. Tree guy told me saving grace may be that the roots typically support the branches directly above them - and there nearly no branches above this area as they have all been trimmed back.

The house up the block from us in its final stages....it is very similar in style to what our house should appear like (arts/crafts, tapered beams, etc)...we are shooting for a more historic sage color though.

Excavation

Well, after taking months to get through permit - things are progressing at a break neck speed for the time being. Same crew that demo'd were out today to start excavating - and as hard as it is to believe - they will wrap up tomorrow!

It is amazing to see them work on such narrow city lots - literally digging within 9 ft of the neighbors house.

The "free" dirt dump site Bridget found out about via a friend worked out well - and given 50+ loads left the site - we saved $70 per load (so 50 loads x $70 each - works out to $3,500 savings). Now, we may not realize all that, as I think they probably spent a extra 20 minutes getting to that site - but either way - we should save some $$$.

So, plan is excavators will finish up tomorrow and the concrete folks will be out early Thursday to start the footings - in fact, they have already called for a Thursday inspection - so they plan to be done in a day as well.

All in all, progressing much faster than I could have imagined, considering I was worried we would not even get out of permit phase less than 7 days ago.





By mid morning the whole was already very deep...

While this kind of teardown is done in nearly every suburb in Chicago, and has been for years - it is certainly a nuisance to others though - as the crane was probably 6 feet from the neighbors the entire day. The house across the street from us (1125 webster) had been on the market as a teardown - but was recently taken off the market and rented out due to the soft market - but its only a matter of time before we get our share of the nusaince.

House "Fall Down"

Finally, after what seems like eternity, the house came tumbling down. Or as Connor said..."fall down."

It is quite amazing that a house that stood the test of time for 70 years, was completely wiped out and hauled away within a few hours. In fact, the house and garage were probably gone within 120 minutes...it was waiting for the dumpsters that took some time.

In the process this morning - all the gawkers were out in full force and we actually met quite a few of the neighbors we had never met - including several with kids Connor's age.

Anyways - I was able to salvage a couple shingles, a plank of flooring and a piece of siding that will go into the new den in some sort of collage of articifacts and articles concerning the house. Not much else was really salvageable.

Kudos to Calacci Excavating - who with a two man crew did a flawless job. I hope all my subcontractors end up being as top notch as they were. They will be back out Monday or Tuesday to dig the hole for the foundation - which again, they say they can do in one day.

Bridget gets major credit for what looks like may be a $3,000 to $5,000 cost savings discovery. Turns out we have a friend (who Bridget works with) who is building a custom home down in Plainfield. Turns out his builder is working on a large church project that is in need of clay/dirt. So I gave the guy a call and he is going to take ALL, yes, ALL, of our dirt that needs to be hauled off site. It may not sound like much - but it had the potential to be a major savings if all goes well. We are estimated to have 50 truck loads of dirt that will need to be trucked off site. At a charge of $210 a load ($140 for truck time/miles, $70 a per load dump fee) we can pretty much eliminate all those dump fees and possibly some of the mileage time.

Another great example how managing this process yourself can lead to big cost savings.

We also had some tree guys out last Wednesday to "prune" a massive 100yr old cottonwood tree, and take down two 70 yr old ash trees that were nothing but trouble waiting to happen. Tree firm ended up being fantastic too - couple guys my age - kind of reminded me of my sisters boyfriend - a real nononsense guy who pretty much came out, looked at the trees, and gave me a price on the spot. Versus a bunch of other guys that had to go back to their office and estimate it out. Plus this guys was 50% less than the others.

Hopefully updates on here will become almost daily now, as work will proceed quickly in the short term. Hope to be pouring the footings by wed/thu.


The tree guy up high bringing down one of the ash trees that would have been overhanging the house.


Takes a special person to being these beasts down...


The trees did not seem this big when looking at them from 70 ft below...


The 1930's 1126 Webster St house about to meets its demise...



I am not sure what is bigger - the 700 sq ft house or the equipment that is about to bring it down...


70 yrs of history about to tumble down.





Naperville requires water to be sprayed on the demo the entire time to keep dust down - with temps in the mid 50's and a light drizzle, probably was not needed.


A few whacks later - a good chunk of the house is gone.


Apparently, Carter was not as happy to see the house go away - although he never went inside, he did like playing in the yard.


Connor was fairly mesmerized..."truck" and "fall dawn" were frequently words out of his mouth.


The final wall still stands...




Who doesn't like an "open concept" kitchen?

Within 2 hours - not much remained.

By the time I ran home for an hour- the conrete foundation was busted up and all the house rubble was at a landfill.


An hour after that, the lot was empty...


And you can see, through the back yard, progress in the neighborhood, as a new house towers over its older neighbors.

Video of Demo

Sound did not transfer to web very good, so video only.

D-Day Nears...

Finally, after what does not even seem like reality anymore, demolition is set for this Friday. Stay tuned...

Permit Slowdowns

Got first comments back on permits the other week...turns out there are some grading issues and a few architecture issues. Overall, the dont appear to be anything major, but who knows. We resubmitted the corrections on Friday, so hopefully we are getting close.

Had a tree guy out the house on Saturday to examine some tree issues. I will need to trim back a couple of my neighbors trees, as they are impeding in my air space, and will hamper building. One of them is probably 150 yrs old, so no desire to trim too much off. Also, the Naperville Forester (who knew they had one) recommended I remove the lone crooked Ash tree in the front yard. It has certainly seen better days, as it is a bit hallowed out, but hate to see a tall tree come down. But better now than 5 yrs from now when it lands on the house!

Also, trying to get the loan closing scheduled. We have been approved for quite some time, but I dont like having a unclosed loan hanging loose in this financial environment...had it scheduled for Wednesday, but need to reschedule.

Other than that, just the continuous process of trying to make selections on what we are actually going to use in the house...which is endless.

Decisions, Decisions...

Way to many decisions to make in this process – our habit of spending weeks to make one decision now must go out the window – as decisions will have to be made much more quickly over the coming weeks, as there simply is no time to spend weeks and weeks pondering. Luckily, we have narrowed down options over the past year. However, the following areas are ones where no final decision has been made:

**Windows – down to two brands that best fit our needs and have the options we desire – JeldWen or Pella. All will be double-hung with the more standard grille patterns. It is amazing the number of options there are for grille patterns – however, basic colonial style is the most common for the style of house we are building. We tossed around the idea of casement windows, while I like the look better, I don’t like the functionality vs double hung. Plus, casements are more $$ than double hung – so pretty easy choice there.

One last decision is on exterior cladding/grille color – we were originally at two colors (white or cream). However, we saw several houses in Downers Grove that had black or stone colored cladding/grilles – really looked classy. So yet another decision to be made. Are hunch is we will go with cream if all the exterior trim is cream – but black is appealing (cost may be the determining factor).

Then of course there are the interior hardware options….

**Kitchen Cabinets – To go with a glazed, aged white style or a more traditional honey/chestnut type color? Costs are all over the map – and this will likely be one of the more difficult decisions to make.

**Interior Doors – Have it narrowed down to two styles – a two-panel and a 3-panel craftsman style.

**Flooring – I love the look of a darker prefinished handscraped floor – but dark shows more dirt. Plus there are the issues of matching up to the stairs (which will be wood). The other option is a site finished standard red oak floor (cheapest) or possibly a site finished brazillian cherry (more expensive). A lot depends on the kitchen cabinets – darker floor means lighter cabinets.

**Exterior color – fiber cement siding is the choice (Hardi Plank) most likely a historical shade of mossy green/sage…however, still like the look of the really old, deep, deep blue color.

**Appliances – too many options to even mention…double vs single oven, induction vs gas cooktop, side by side vs French door fridge, microwave location, venting, etc

**WaterHeater – Idea to go with a tankless is out after most plumbers I talked to said cost savings is often negated and then some by the upfront costs (more expensive unit, larger copper piping needed) and the required maintenance.

**Patio Door – really like the openness that a 4-unit sliding door provides (far left and far right panes are stationary – two middle panes open opposite of each other like a side by side refrigerator (but sliding on a track). Cost may drop that idea out quickly – thus may end up with a 3unit door – opens in the middle. We shall see.

**Interior colors – have not even given thought.

**Baseboard trim and casing – what happened to the day when you had two choices – ranch style or colonial style? Now there are 175 options…minimum baseboard height will be 5-1/2” – much higher than the standard builder grade 3-1/4”

**Roof – have not even given the color or style any thought.

**Interior hardware/faucets – its either the now standard brushed nickel or the more trendy aged bronze (almost looks black).

**Bathroom cabinets – have given no thought.

**Kitchen countertops – we are going to need over 100sq ft – so no matter what, it aint going to be cheap.

** Garage door – again, there are so many options now – its mind numbing…

**Fireplace – you would think this would be simple – not so much – a lot of options here too…of course the one I like is the most expensive.

So, needless to say, there are a few decisions to be made yet…

Permit Process Official Underway

Well, nearly 1 full year after we went under contract on the teardown property, we are finally submitting for permit to acutally do the work. In fact, the process of preparing for permit may end up being the most time consuming and annoying. I think I handed the Naperville folks about a 6 inch stack of papers, blueprints, etc...

Word is we will hear back with a 1st review within 17 to 21 days. Then, if all goes well (as in the architect did his part right, and I did mine). Permit should be released within 21 days after that. So are modified goal of moving dirt in early October looks possible once again.

We have locked in the bids for the demolition and excavating portion of the house already - as Naperville requires the demo firm to provide a $1,000,000 insurance policy (which apparently is very cheap to obtain - it just sounds big).

But we can now exhale for a bit and focus on securing all the other trades and locking in those bids.

More Progress

It is actually beginning to feel like something may actually get built!! Go figure. Progress is continuing at a nice pace now. Have been working on the bidding/costing. So far it has been pretty amazing the difference in price quotes on various trades.

Lumber has ranged from $23,000 to $29,000. Electricians have ranged from $13,000 to $20,000. Demolition has ranged from $4,200 to $8,900.

As you can see, this is by far the biggest advantage of controlling this process yourself. If I was using a builder, they likely would have just went with one bid, with the subcontractor they typically use.

Given there are 15-20 trades bidding this job, and just the 3 I listed above have a total price difference of nearly $20,000 - very easy to see how one can save $50,000+ just on choosing subcontractors after several have bid. That savings is even before any dirt is moved...pretty insane. And pretty easy to see how lucrative this business can be (or was) in the heyday 3 years ago for builders.

Big day on Tuesday afteroon, as I will official meet with Naperville to submit the intial docs for demo/rebuild. After submission, can hopefully be digging within 6 weeks (if all goes well with the permit process). So far all the people I have met with and talked with have been very accomodating for a rookie like me. Who knows, maybe my inexperience and determination are a breath of fresh air - given I am sure 99% of the folks they see are experienced big time builders with big bank rolls (not that there is anything wrong with that).

The process of getting to permit has been the longest - as you need to have so many ducks lined up in a row before you even go in and submit. Luckily, our architect has done over 100 Naperville homes, so he is very familiar with Naperville codes and requirements. However, even then the paperwork trail is nearly endless - requiring you to jump through many hoops just to be able to get to the point of permit submission.

We have also started to scope out kitchen cabinets. My god...what a limitless galaxy of options. The sheer number of brands, door styles, finishes, glazes, colors, distressing, and so on are mind numbing. Given its only one of 1,000 decisions to be made, we know we can't dilly dally, but we were able to get a jump start by meeting with some designers this past weekend. We will see where their prices come back

On a side note, ran across an interesing site that confirms why we despised the location of our old Bartlett townhome. Don't get me wrong, we loved the townhome and the park in the development, but you were pretty much held hostage in the cul-de sac unless you wanted to get in your car. This site (walkscore.com) calculates the walkability of your home in its surrounding neighborhood.

Needless to say, the old Bartlett diggs didnt fare so well...26 out of 100 (completely car dependent)

The new Naperville diggs rate much much better for getting out on foot...71 out of 100 (very walkable).

While I didnt need walkscore to tell me that, interesting website that pretty much nails it on the head.

From 0 mph to 2 mph...

Not a whole lot going on, but at least we are budging off the starting line a bit. The project (the house) is completely out to bid. Which means it is in the process of getting bids from three different contractors for each phase of construction (from the demo and foundation, all the way down to door knobs). When done, hopefully this week or next, we will know exactly where we stand in terms of cost. Hopefully, it is still in line with the orginal projections. If not, we will have to make any needed cuts. As always, I am free to bid portions out myself, or simply choose to do that part on my own (ie, save money).

Once bidding is complete will officially start the permit process with Naperville. We have already started some of the background work. Called Nicor to come out and disconnect gas completely (can take up to 8 weeks). Also delivered our 'Intent to Demo' letters that Naperville requires to all residents within 60 feet of the property. Pretty much just a courtesy gesture - but if anyone requests, we need to meet with them and answer any questions they have. Later on, once demo is at hand, we need to notify those with 250 feet (which is quite a bit on a grid style city layout).

Also working on construction loans. Was a bit concerned given the market has tightened up, but appears some of the media hype is overblown, as so far no problems. But then again, I don't think anyone with good credit or income would - I think all you hear about on the news is the 1% having issues.

We are approved with one lender for the amount I desire, but still shopping around, as construciton loans vary widely - much more than standard mortgages. The biggest difference is in structure. Can either do a 1-close loan that lumps in your eventual 30-year fixed mortgage with the construciton loan. Very easy, but often rate can be a bit higher on back end 30 year fix and you can get stuck in a jumbo due to the intial construction loan exceeding conforming limits. I would prefer a two loan option - which is a seperate consturction loan and then a seperate 30 yr fix. This is more risky in that it requires two closes, but can save money on rate and can then shop the 30yr fix around to get best deal. Also can avoid any jumbo crap and can avoid having to escrow taxes - which is often not as easy in a one-close depending on the initial amount borrowed. In theory, I intend to borrow the max amount, as you do not pay on it until you use it, so better to have a cushion and not use it, then the other way (no cushion, and a need for a cushion). Hence this max amount can push you into jumbo territory, which is my main issue with doing a 1-close loan. I dont plan to spend the amount I borrow, however, I will be locked into that 'level' on a rate basis.

Updates should be more frequent now (at least I hope there is not a 4 month gap until the next one).

March Update

Not too much happening. After a 2-3 week period when it seemed like our current house vanished from the market - showings and activity has picked up again. Once again we have a showing this week where the agent says its the best unti they have seen in a long time, that we are in the clients top 3. But its all a waiting game. We have another showing on Saturday and then we will take a crack at an open house on Sunday (we will see what happens - not a true believer that an open house sells homes - but it can never hurt).

Still finalizing plans for the new home - floorplan is still the same - just doing some checks on the room dimensions - trying to replicate them in the real world to make sure they feel right. Only change that may happen is a bay bump out in the breakfast area. Other than that, I may finally be content that its the best we can do - given if you change one thing - it impacts another.

Have a call into a civil engineer to survey and do their work on the site. Have fear that one of the 100 year old trees flanking the lot line may need to come down - but we shall see. Hate to see that happen as the tree is GINORMOUS and I am sure a couple grand to take down. Plus it provides such a great feel to the yard. Luckily, there are 3 others that should be OK.

Meeting with our consultants on Friday to tighten up the specs/budget and after that, its finalzing the floorplan with the architect and then starting the joyous permit and teardown approval process with the city of Naperville. Having meet with the staff at city hall once already (all wonderful and very nice)- it can be rather intimidating - given they told me not many people attempt to do what we are doing - most hire a full blown (expensive and over priced) custom builder. Bu

We shall see - you dont get anywhere in life without taking some calculated risks....right??

Preliminary Drawings (near final)...

Finally have some more official prelimary drawings - much more final now than at any point - need to meet with my outside consultants to ensure budget is still on pace and that what we have is all doable - also to get another 'professional' set of eyes on the plans for any thing that can be modfied to make it more 'user friendly' or more importantly, cheaper.

It is hard to believe that what started out as my sketches and ideas on scratch paper is now shaping up to be a 'real' house that may actually get built and lived in - unbelievable!! Now its just a matter of getting it done on time and ON BUDGET.

The outside look has changed from our hours spent driving around the suburbs that have teardowns on city lots (Hinsdale, Downers Grove, Naperville, Glen Ellyn, Westmont, Clarendon Hills, Wheaton, Wilmette, Winnekta, etc). We have settled on a much more 'true' craftsman/arts craft style (more sloping roof, 4 front tapered pillars, large covered front porch) - the end result should be a mash up of the three houses in the previous post - the bottom 4 ft or so will be stone and the remainder will be fiber cement siding (ie looks like cedar - but no maintenance).

I think our floorplan accomplishes what we set out to do - I know some preffered a formal living space (not for us), and some preffered the formal dining room closer to the kitchen (again, not for us, as will not be used often). We like the concept from touring 100's of model homes of the great room, informal dining area, kitchen and den/office all being in the same area and open - all flowing into each other - as thats simply where you live day to day. Further, all four bedrooms our upstairs - with the master having no adjoining walls to other bedrooms (quiet!). 2nd floor laundry was a must - as we hate it being in the mudroom now - nothing but a junk collector - afterall - smart building says the laundry should be on the same floor as the master and bedrooms.

The idea of no master bath tub is still in the air - as of now, its out - however, we have left space that is currently targeted to be a bench, linen closet, dirty laundry storage area as a space it COULD be, but I just dont like the idea of having one - we have used our current master tub twice in 5 years - we'll take the large multi-jetted shower instead.

Also on the plan is a bump out in the garage for a work area, xtra storage, a bench in the mudroom and a split 2nd floor bath to provide privacy between the sink and toilet area via a pocket door. Also, the staircase will be open to the basement - there will be no back wall in the dining room - rather an open railing. The great room will either have a 10 or 11 ft cieiling or some sort of vault to it - note there is nothing above the great room - strictly a cost savings measure so we can attain some volume in that space .

That it is for now - meeting with my 'helpers' next week to further finalize....

Exterior Mashup

Somehow we are trying to combine elements of each of these three houses to arrive at our desired look....

Revised Floorplan

2nd 'official' attmept at the floorplan. Currently in architects hands to see if my ideas work this time - should know in a week. Major changes to kitchen layout...after touring 100's of homes the past few years, we are ripping off a a couple model home ideas for the kitchen - which places a support beam in an outer ring 'raised' bar island...key goal is to maintain the complete openness between kitchen, great room and informal dining area (after all, that is where you spend 90% ofthe time you are home)....other big item is our choice to ditch the useless master bathroom tub...as most, we have one now which we've used twice in 5 years....rather than a tub that collects dust, we are going to expand the shower into a large, door less walk in....

One thing I learned when designing a house is sq footage baloons on you fast....as you need to count all the exterior walls (which is about 5 inches around the entire perimeter of the house) as sq footage...so what you think may be 2,800 sq ft suddenly becomes 3,200....

Either way, once the plans are finalized, we will be at a stand still until we can sell our current home - which is far from a fun process with a 19 month old and a 4 month old.

The Original Floorplan

As sketched on a napkin and then on graph paper - architect interpreted my plans and came up with a few concerns....biggest one being I have too many open spaces....need beams...with one needing to go in the middle of the kitchen.....so was back to the drawing board for me to come up with some revisions....